Sabre is theatre. Foil is art. Epee is truth.[ss:Blue Tabard][F4:5987930[F4:59879300 3][F4:598793003]
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 3,672 Location: Dickinson, TX Karma: 42
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #15 on Dec 17, 2008, 8:24am »
In the parallel discussion on Fencing Net, a new post by Gilbert Bailey - fencePBT.com, Inc. added this information:
Here is what I know:
For FIE events you not only need to have the conducting material (most people know this), the bib must be 1600N (FIE) of course and you also need a tang that bears the M2009 (for mask 2009, like s2000 for sabre etc...) or greater FIE manufacturer mark (most people are unaware of this). You can't just simply switch out the bib as you will fail at weapons check for not having the M2009 mark. We do have the new PBT FIE mask with conductive foil bib in stock in case someone has a question about the design.
I have spoken to the USFA about their position on the topic. The FIE made a provision for local fencing federations. They can implement the new rule however they see fit. Meaning that they do not have to require a 1600N material bib or the M2009+ manufacturer's mark on the tang of the mask. As a result they are hoping that manufacturers will offer kits or allow fencers to send in masks for retro fitting by sewing lame material onto the bib. We have determined for example that if we do not have to deal with the tang that sewing on lame material can work for a PBT mask. This will also prevent fencers from having to upgrade to the more expensive 1600N / stainless steel format. They will be taking a wait and see position for the 2009-2010 fencing season. They will then review the situation to see if they should adopt the bib as target. (keeping in mind that their implementation will be different in terms of bib resistance, markings etc...)
There is always the remote possibility that they might decide to go with the more stringent 1600N bib but I don't see that as likely. They may also decide to extend their wait and see position.
This information is current within about two weeks.
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 780 Location: Santa Fe, TX Karma: 6
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #16 on Dec 18, 2008, 8:40am »
Great more pricey changes. I guess they don't care so much at the international level where most fencers are subsidized by their national government. Kinda tough for Americans, though, where we still buy into all that "amateur" blather.
I doubt our cash-strapped USFA will foot the bill.
"Free speech is an act of desperation. It is a last resort, an onslaught of quiet fury, and -- in most cases -- an insult to, and abandonment of, vital social norms. Men who murder have usually lost their inhibitions only for a moment; but men who speak freely have lost them forever, and are thus as dangerous to a society as a mad dog. "-John "Birdman" Bryant
Sabre is theatre. Foil is art. Epee is truth.[ss:Blue Tabard][F4:5987930[F4:59879300 3][F4:598793003]
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 3,672 Location: Dickinson, TX Karma: 42
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #18 on Feb 14, 2009, 8:46pm »
The USFA Board of Directors meets tonight. One motion on the agenda, coming up for its first hearing is the following...
Motion (Mr. Baker):
To adopt rules changes to reflect a change in the target area in foil to include a portion of the lower bib, matching the current rules in effect for FIE competition. The effective date of these rules changes will be August 1, 2009 for all national tournaments and qualifiers to national tournaments. The effective date of these rules changes will be August 1, 2010 for all other competitions at all levels governed by the rules of US Fencing.
Rationale:
Now that the new target area has actually gone into use internationally it appears significantly less likely that there will be additional near-term modifications to these rules. It is important that US Fencing stay in sync with the rules used in fencing in the rest of the world.
While it is noted that there are significant costs to retrofitting existing equipment, this is a cost which is unavoidable if we wish to remain in conformity with the most recent developments in the sport.
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 148 Karma: 19
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #19 on Feb 15, 2009, 3:27pm »
In other words: Here's the hoop. You jump.
The USFA, in this time of recession could just have easily said, we will not implement this nationally, but members who do compete in FIE events will have to comply with FIE rules.
But my original question still stands. Why did the FIE adopt this rule in the first place? We're not talking about a significant increase in target area.
But my original question still stands. Why did the FIE adopt this rule in the first place? We're not talking about a significant increase in target area.
"Free speech is an act of desperation. It is a last resort, an onslaught of quiet fury, and -- in most cases -- an insult to, and abandonment of, vital social norms. Men who murder have usually lost their inhibitions only for a moment; but men who speak freely have lost them forever, and are thus as dangerous to a society as a mad dog. "-John "Birdman" Bryant
Joined: Aug 2003 Gender: Male Posts: 511 Location: Houston Karma: 39
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #21 on Feb 17, 2009, 9:53am »
It might be an answer to those who distort their en garde to hide as much target behind their bib/mask as possible. If you duck and keep your head up, thebib becomes a shield and it's a pain to hit you. If that shield is worth a point now, people might start fencing right.
"Well pond, we meet again. But this time I've nothing to fear of your inky depths. As long as you're in the grips of winter, you can't hurt me." -- Buddy, Spot the Frog
nemo Blademaster mobilis in mobili member is offline
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 542 Location: Right behind you Karma: 5
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #22 on Feb 17, 2009, 11:35am »
"Free speech is an act of desperation. It is a last resort, an onslaught of quiet fury, and -- in most cases -- an insult to, and abandonment of, vital social norms. Men who murder have usually lost their inhibitions only for a moment; but men who speak freely have lost them forever, and are thus as dangerous to a society as a mad dog. "-John "Birdman" Bryant
Joined: Jul 2005 Gender: Male Posts: 379 Location: Port Lavaca, TX Karma: 7
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #23 on Feb 17, 2009, 2:11pm »
It's an endless arms-race type affair. SOmeone finds a new way to work around the rules and new rules are created to keep it in check or, as in this case, changes are made in the equipment.
"A classical fencer is supposed to be one who observes a fine position, whose attacks are fully developed, whose hits are marvelously accurate, his parries firm and his ripostes executed with precision." - Louis Rondelle
It might be an answer to those who distort their en garde to hide as much target behind their bib/mask as possible. If you duck and keep your head up, thebib becomes a shield and it's a pain to hit you. If that shield is worth a point now, people might start fencing right. t
Maybe at the en garde line, but once the phrase starts, all bets are off. You can't fence and hold your head in such an unnatural attitide.
Re: Foil Bib « Reply #25 on Feb 23, 2009, 10:35pm »
I personally hate the idea.
1) Price: we all know this already. Fencing is expensive enough already as is.
2) Convenience: Everyone has to ship their mask in to get a lame put on, stitch one on themselves or buy a new mask? BS.
3) Time: Foil is slow enough with constant off targets, weapon, body cord, and lame trouble. So now you add more lame area and a mask clip. It's like giving poison to a dying horse.
4) On a more personal note... I can't count the number of times my bib has saved me from getting hit
But from a more professional point of view, if the FIE has already incorporated it, this isn't a matter the USFA can simply choose not to enforce (Like those ridiculous masks). It is going to have an impact on the way foil is fenced.
As of the beginning of last season, the FIE has begun requiring foil fencers to wear a special mask with several inches of lame material sewn to the lower edge, thus making the valid target extend up to the prominences of the clavicles, as required by the FIE rules (Seniors – 2008-09; Juniors 2009-10).
The new FIE approved mask cannot currently be retrofitted or repaired, and will be fairly expensive. Further, there is no indication that these masks will not be subject to grounding of the mesh to the valid target, causing valid lights on the non-conductive bib and mesh.
Within the USFA there also appears to be concern with the safety issue of focusing our athlete’s attention on the relatively sensitive neck and throat area.
The High Performance Director has not seen a change in offensive or defensive coaching methodology because of the additional target area.
After evaluating this mask in international competition last season, the Rules Committee of the FOC has determined that there has been minimal impact on fencing bouts with the addition of this extended target. In entire World Cup competitions, very few points were scored on this area.
Given the expense that would be required of our already taxed athletes (and their families), the relatively limited impact on scoring, and no change in the fencers’ tactics, it is the recommendation of the FOC that the USFA not adopt the FIE rule requiring lame material on the foil bib.
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